ALASKA CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION

November 12, 1955

FIFTH DAY

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order (9:30 a.m.) The Secretary will call the roll. (Secretary Stewart called the roll.)

SECRETARY: Two absent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: A quorum is present. Will Reverend Londborg please come forward and give the daily invocation.

(Mr. Londborg goes forward and Convention stands.)

LONDBORG: Let us pray. Our gracious Heavenly Father, again we come before you as citizens of this great country, realizing the important task that is laid before us, and again we seek Thy wisdom and Thy guidance. We pray that our deliberations may truly be as you would have them to be, that this land may go on in the freedom that we have enjoyed in the past. Bless us throughout this day with Thy wisdom in all deliberations. We pray in Thy Name. Amen.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Secretary will proceed with the reading of any communications that might be before us.

SECRETARY: You have a communication from the Farthest North Fairbanks Lodge No. 1551, Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks. (The Secretary read the communication from E. P. McCarron extending the privileges of the club rooms to the delegates during their stay in Fairbanks.)

JOHNSON: Mr. President,

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Johnson.

JOHNSON: I move and ask unanimous consent that the minutes of the previous plenary session be considered read and approved.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Johnson asks unanimous consent that the minutes of the previous plenary session be considered read and approved. Is there objection? If there is no objection it is so ordered. Now we are ready for the presentation of committee reports. Does the Rules Committee have a report to make to the Convention?

RILEY: Mr. President, the Rules Committee met all day yesterday and will have a formal report to submit once it is in shape for reading by all the delegates. That may not be till Monday. While I am on my feet I would like to announce to the Rules Committee however that we will meet again this morning at the

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Coghill, does your Committee have a report to make to the Convention?

COGHILL: Mr. President, your Committee on Administration met yesterday, and the report is in the making. As soon as it has been passed by the Committee at our first recess we will submit it to the Convention.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Chair would like to report to the Convention that the advisory Committee on Committees worked hard for a good number of hours into the night. They completed their work, but the Chairman has not quite completed his work on that important assignment, and the Chair will say that it will not be too long before the report will be in the hands of the Secretary for proper mimeographing for each delegate. It will, however, take a recess, and the Chair stands ready now for any other business that is proper to come before the Convention. Mr. Secretary, you might read that communication that you have in your hands.

SECRETARY: There are two announcements -- the tea given by the wife of the President of the University this afternoon for wives of delegates for which there will be transportation. Cabs will leave at 2:30 from the Nordale Hotel, at 3 o'clock from the Northward Building, at 3:30 from the Polaris Building. The Hospitality Committee of the Chamber of Commerce, which has planned numbers of social engagements in these succeeding days, wishes very much to have a complete list of the wives or other family members of each delegate who may be here in addition to delegates, and would appreciate it if you could perhaps give the name of your wife or husband, if he or she is here or coming soon, so that the record may be complete on that. They do have some further apartment space available, that is knowledge of it, at the Hospitality Comnittee, if anyone is still looking for apartment space.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Each member could during the recess inform the Chief Clerk as to whether or not his wife is here with him. Is there any other business to come before the Convention at this time? Mr. White?

WHITE: Mr. President, the advisory Committee on Committees has a recommended amendment to the rules that might be well to pass on at this time so that the President can be sure of this feature in making his decision on committees.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. White, the Chair feels that it would be proper at this time to bring that before the Convention for the reason that the Rules Committee does not yet have its report mimeographed, and if it were adopted by the Convention the suggestion could go right along with the suggestion on the report of the Rules Committee.

already passed I believe by the Convention. It is presented with the approval of your President and with the recommendation of the Committee on Committees that it passed. The explanation of the motion that we wish to make, first of all, is that the membership of the Committee on Resources be increased from 7 to 9. I might explain that the reason for it is partly that the greatest interest in it by the delegates was shown in that Committee. Also by so doing it creates a total of 108 permanent positions to be filled by 54 delegates, which works out very nicely mathematically. I therefore so move and ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Unanimous consent is asked that the suggestion of the advisory Committee on Committees be adopted by the Convention to increase the membership of the Committee on Resources from 7 to 9. Is there objection? Hearing no objection it is so ordered. Reverend Armstrong?

ARMSTRONG: Mr. President, I believe all of us want to show our appreciation to Dr. and Mrs. Patty for the wonderful reception that was shown in our behalf the other evening, and I would ask unanimous consent that the Secretary be instructed to write a letter of thanks to these wonderful people for the hospitality shown to us. That would be my suggestion, sir.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Reverend Armstrong asks unanimous consent that a vote of thanks be sent to Dr. and Mrs. Patty for the wonderful reception for the delegates the other evening. Is there objection? Hearing no objection it is so ordered.

HILSCHER: Mr. President, I rise to a point of personal privilege and I would like this not to be on the record.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Chair wonders if, is in doubt as to whether we can go off the record as far as you insist it be off the record. If there is no objection, the Chair will declare a two-minute recess. Will that be objectionaole to you Mr. Hilscher?

HILSCHER: No that is quite all right.

(The Convention recessed for a few minutes.)

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order. If there is no objection Mr. Hilscher may proceed under a question of personal privilege. Mr. Hilscher.

(At this time Delegate Hilscher spoke under a question of personal privilege.)

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Chair at this time would like to

their first Vice President, Mr. Frank Peratrovich of Klawock. (applause) Is there further business? Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: I would like to rise to a point of order. I would like to have the Convention send a letter of sympathy to my brother and mother because this morning I just got an emergency telephone call that again vandalism has struck at Nenana, and our store has been robbed.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If there is no objection, it is so ordered. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, I would move and ask unanimous consent that our Secretary be instructed to write a letter of thanks and appreciation to the Fairbanks Lodge of Elks for extending its hospitality to the Convention.

PRESIDENT EGAN: You've heard Mr. Sundborg's request. If there is no objection it is so ordered.

HILSCHER: Mr. President, your Committee on Tape Recording will have a detailed report for you a little later on in the day after we get the figures from the other radio stations.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Thank you Mr. Hilscher. Is there other business to come before the Convention at this time?

DOOGAN: Mr. Chairman, I would ask unanimous consent that the roll call record be changed to show that Mr. McLaughlin and myself are present.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If there is no objection, the roll call be changed to show that Mr. Doogan and Mr. McLaughlin are present. Hearing no objection it is so ordered. If there is no further business to come before the Convention at this time the Chair will entertain a motion for a recess.

TAYLOR: I move that we recess until a call of the Chair.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Taylor moves and asks unanimous consent that the Convention stand at recess subject to the call of the Chair. Is there objection? If there is no objection it is so ordered. The Convention is at recess.

( The Convention recessed at 9:55 a.m.)

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order. (10:30 a.m.) The Chair feels that inasmuch as it is going to be some time before the Committees are through meeting and the reports are in, that it would probably be wise to recess until a said time, say 2 o'clock this afternoon or some such time that would be acceptable to the Convention. That subject is open

JOHNSON: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Convention stand at recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon and ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Unanimous consent is asked.

TAYLOR: I would like to amend that to 9:30 on Monday morning.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Unanimous consent is asked that the Convention stand at recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon. Did you object, Mr. Taylor?

TAYLOR: I moved for an amendment.

PRESIDENT EGAN: There is no motion on the floor, Mr. Taylor. It isn't seconded.

JOHNSON: I so move.

COOPER: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: It has been moved and seconded then that the Convention stand at recess until 2 o'clock, and Mr. Taylor moves to amend the motion so that the Convention will be adjourned until 9:30 Monday morning. Is there a second to the proposed amendment?

JOHNSON: A point of order -- is a motion to recess subject to amendment -- that would change it to a motion to adjourn?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Your point of order is well taken, Mr. Johnson. The question before us is "Shall the Convention recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon?" All those in favor -- Mr. Coghill?

COGHILL: Mr. President, I would like to announce that your Committee on Convention Administration will meet immediately after recess.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Coghill announces that the Committee on Administration will meet immediately upon recess. Are there other committee announcements? Mr. Riley?

RILEY: Mr. President, the Rules Committee will resume its session immediately during recess.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley announces that the Rules Committee will resume its session immediately upon recess. The question is, "Shall the Convention recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon?" All in favor say "aye". All opposed say "no". The "ayes" have it. The Convention is in recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon.

(The Convention recessed at 10:30 a.m.)

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order (2:15 p.m.) Mr. Hellenthal, did you have a motion you would like to place on the floor, or a request?

HELLENTAL: Mr. Chairman, I request that unanimous consent be granted so that my name can be taken from the Committee on Administration and the name of Senator Jim Nolan substituted.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hellenthal asks unanimous consent that his name be withdrawn from the Committee on Administration. Is there objection?

COGHILL: I object, Mr. President until I find out what Mr. Hellenthal's motive is. He is a good man on that Committee and I hate to lose him.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Coghill, the reason is that in the makeup of the committees, as they will be presented to you, Mr. Hellenthal will be on other committees, and Mr. Nolan has consented to be on the Committee of Administration.

COGHILL: I withdraw my objection.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Hearing no objection, it is so ordered. At this time the Chairman will hand the Clerk the list of committees and if the messenger can distribute a copy of this list at the present time it will be appreciated. First named on the committee is the chairman of the particular committee. Mrs. Wien?

WIEN: While the papers are being distributed, I would like to state that Mr. Corcoran, who was Field Supervisor for the PAS, has worked closely with the Statehood Committee since July 9, and was taken ill and is in the hospital. His wife from the States came to join him. He will be here for several days but will be unable to work further for the Convention or the Public Administration Service. I would like at this time to move that the President instruct the Secretary to write a letter to Mr. Corcoran expressing our regrets, our sympathy and our wishes for his speedy and complete recovery. I move and ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mrs. Wien asks unanimous consent that the Secretary be instructed to send a message to Mr. Corcoran expressing the Convention's regret at his not being here and our wishes for his speedy recovery. Is there objection? Hearing no objection Mr. Rivers?

R. RIVERS: Mr. President, may we add "and our appreciation for the services Mr. Corcoran has rendered"?

appreciation for the services that Mr. Corcoran has rendered" will be added to the request of Mrs. Wien. Hearing no objection it is so ordered. It might be well to announce that the Committee on Rules and the Committee on Administration do not appear on this list for the reason that they as permanent committees were appointed earlier. However, later those committees will be added to appear with these on another sheet. The Chair wishes to state that your advisory Committee on Committees worked many hours in advising the President as to the makeup of committees. The President then took the advice.under consideration. Some changes were made and the President feels that this is the best that he could come up with. He realizes that each and every member of this Constitutional Convention is well qualified on any committee or as chairman of the committees. It was a terrific job. At this time the Chair will announce that he is appointing the committees, as listed on the desk of each and every delegate, as the permanent committees and their chairmen, of the Convention. The Chair would like to request that all committee chairmen meet with the President immediately following recess time this afternoon. Is there a report of any other committee? Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: Your Committee on Convention Administration respectfully submits the following report: For purposes of planning the balanced and co-ordinated use of the Convention appropriations so as to carry out the intent of Chapter 46, SLA 1955, your committee has prepared a tentative allocation of the funds available to the Convention. This allocation is predicated on the possibility of the Convention's lasting the full period of 75 days and therefore indicates the maximum liabilities which might be incurred. The budget is not intended to restrict the later adjustment of particular items, should necessities demand changes, and does not by this allocation authorize any expenditure of funds, without the approval of the Convention. The tentative allocation is as follows:

TENTATIVE ESTIMATE OF COSTS

APPROPRIATION FOR CONVENTION $300,000.

Less: Estimated election expenses 38,000.

_______

$262,000.

ESTIMATED CONVENTION COSTS

A. DELEGATES

1. Salary @ $15.00 per day for 79 days 65,175.

3. Travel of Delegates (1 round trip) 6,000.

4. Social Security contribution 1,247.

________

Estimated Total Expenses of Delegates $159,379.

B. SECRETARIAT (computed on 80 days)

1. Personal Service of Administrative Staff

1 Chief Clerk @ $30.00 per day 2,400.

1 Assistant Chief Clerk @$ 24.00 per day 1,920.

1 Sergeant-at-Arms @ $21.00 per day 1,680.

4 Stenographers @ $22.00 per day 7,040.

3 Clerk-Typist @ $21.00 per day 3,360.

1 Mimeograph Operator @ $21.00 per day 1,680.

1 Doorkeeper @ $18.00 per day 1,440.

1 Messenger @ $18.00 per day 1,440.

1 Message Center Chief @ $21.00 per day 1,680.

1 Recording Clerk @ $25.00 per day 2,000.

1 Librarian - Research Assistant @$25.00

per day 2,000.

2. Salary of Secretary @$31.66 per day plus

$12.00 per diem 3,493.

________

Total Personal Services $ 30,133.

3. Other Staff Expenses, including Travel

and Social Security $ 3,500.

4. Technical and Consulting Services 25,000.

5. Equipment 1,500.

6. Supplies and Postage 3,500.

7. Recording 8,000.

8. Postage for Delegates 1,375.

________

Total Secretariat Expenses $ 73,008.

C. OTHER CONVENTION COSTS

1. Printing of Constitution 6,000.

2. Miscellaneous 24,613

________

GRAND TOTAL:

Estimated Convention Costs: $262,000.

EXPLANATION OF ALLOCATIONS

APPROPRIATIONS FOR CONVENTION: The appropriation of $300,000 was initially diminished approximately $38,000 by the expenses of the election of Delegates, 6nd there is now available to the Convention $262,000.

ESTIMATED CONVENTION COSTS:

A. DELEGATES: The costs indicated in this item are fixed by the terms of Chapter 46, SLA 1955. 79 days are shown to include four extra days for travel to and from the Convention.

B. SECRETARIAT:

1. This item is recommended as the table of organization of permanently assigned staff personnel with salary figures as shown. The salary scale is based on the schedule used by the 1955 Alaska Legislature for similar positions, plus a 15% increase. This increased scale is recommended because of the temporary and specialized nature of the work, and the increase is commensurate with that allowed to teachers in the Second and Fourth Divisions as compared to teachers in the First Division. The Committee recommends that the employment and discharge of staff employees be placed in the discretion of the Secretary. It is contemplated that some of the positions indicated may not be filled until the work load increases, and recommendations for additional part-time personnel may be later made. The salaries indicated would be paid for each calendar day during the full session of the Convention except for any recess called pursuant to Section 1 of Chapter 46, SLA 1955. No overtime salaries will be paid, but the personnel will be engaged with the understanding that overtime work necessary is compensated for by the regular salary.

2. Salary of the Secretary: The Committee recommends that the salary of the Secretary, as stated in the estimate of costs, which is the same amount received in his capacity as Executive Officer of the Alaska Statehood Committee be continued together with the regular Territorial per diem of $12.00; and it further recommends that this salary be paid by reimbursing the Statehood Committee for such salary and per diem for the period commencing November 8, 1955, to the time of final adjournment of the Convention.

3. The item for other staff expenses is intended to cover any contingent expenses that may arise and be authorized for payment by the Committee on Administration.

4. The item tentatively allocated for technical and

consulting services is shown in the same amount as was budgeted in the report of the Statehood and Federal Relations Committees of the 1955 Legislature to the full Legislature in recommending the appropriation of $300,000. When technical and consulting services may be requested by the Convention, this amount will be available.

5. The item tentatively allocated for equipment is to cover the obtaining of typewriters, mimeograph machines and such other equipment and furniture as may be necessary.

The item tentatively allocated for supplies and postage is to cover the purchase of stationery supplies of all kinds, including letterhead stationery for the Convention for the use of Delegates bearing the names of all Delegates on a margin, postage for official mail of the Convention, and other necessary supplies.

7. The recording item is allocated for the possibility of the making of a tape recording of the plenary sessions.

8. The item for postage is allocated as an allowance of $25.00 for each Delegate.

C. OTHER CONVENTION COSTS:

1. The item for printing of the Constitution is intended to provide for the printing of copies of the Constitution as finally adopted.

2. The item for miscellaneous expenses is the otherwise unallocated balance of available convention funds.

OTHER MATTERS

It was further determined to recommend as follows:

1. Weekly pay: That all employees and Delegates be paid weekly.

2. Committee Rooms: That the recommendations of the Secretary as to committee room locations be accepted and the Secretary asked to report said room locations to committee chairmen.

3. Lockers for Delegates: That lockers be provided for each Delegate without cost to the body except for drayage.

4. Bus Transportation: That the Secretary make recommendations to

the committee as to daily bus transportation for Delegates and for

administrative and

5. Privacy of Convention Floor: That the floor of the Convention Hall be appropriately designated by ropes across posts.

6. Expenditure of Funds: That the Secretary be authorized to incur obligations for purposes budgeted for the period November 8, 1955, to date of final adjournment, provided that approval of the Committee on Administration is first obtained as to any one item exceeding one hundred dollars in cost.

7. Reports and Records: That the Secretary maintain such records and render such reports on financial matters as may be requested by the Committee.

8. Flags: That suitable Alaskan and American flags be procured for the Convention Hall.

9. Desks and Chairs: That the matter of desks and larger chairs for Delegates be explored.

10. Daily Prayers: That henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Almighty God and His blessings on our deliberations be held in the Assembly every morning before undertaking the daily business of the body, and that one or more of the clergy of the area be invited to officiate in that service and that the Secretary be requested to make the necessary arrangements.

Mr. President, this is our report, and I move and ask unanimous consent for its adoption.

BUCKALEW: I object.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Objection is heard Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: I so move.

JOHNSON: I second it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: It has been moved and seconded that the report of the Committee on Administration be adopted. The motion is open for discussion. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, if we would vote now to adopt this report, would it mean that we are in effect establishing this budget and authorizing expenditures?

PRESIDENT EGAN: If you accept the report, I believe would be the better word.

preparing the report we carefully stated in our report that this.is a tentative allocation of funds so as to have the Committee give an overall report. The only part of the report that will be held is the Secretariat or personal services and administrative staff, that will be the only part held to.

SUNDBORG: That would be carried into effect if we now vote "yes" on the motion to accept the report?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Sundborg I don't mean to interrupt you but is the motion to accept or to adopt the report?

COGHILL: To adopt.

PRESIDENT EGAN: That's the motion then to adopt the report. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: If the motion before us is to adopt this report I am against it. I don't mind accepting the report as being an expression of the view of that Committee, but to go ahead here and decide how we are going to spend $262,000, when the delegates don't even have any knowledge of what that is except what they've heard read very rapidly here by the Chairman, I just don't think we should conduct the business of Alaska in that way. I certainly want to see before me in written form the breakdown of how this Committee would propose to spend the money available to us before I vote yes on it.

HELLENTHAL: Mr. President?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hellenthal.

HELLENTHAL: Mr. Sundborg is incorrect in his statement. The report expressly states that approval or acceptance of the report will not constitute authorization for the expenditures involved and that the Committee will have to come back to the floor to get that approval. That is very clear in the report, and the Chairman could read that portion and I think it should be read very clearly. The only approval that the Committee asks is the approval of the salary scale of the employees. That the Committee felt should be approved now, not later, but as for every other item in that report we ask for no endorsement whatsoever. It is merely a tentative estimate. I don't know what clearer words could be used to indicate that it is not a mandate, not an authority for an expenditure but merely a possible expenditure if this body later directs that it be made.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Cooper.

COOPER: Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out that in one point in the report you are in direct violation with Territory

clearly states any time over 40 hours and I notice we'll run up against that a little later on in the Convention.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon.

MCCUTCHEON: Mr. President, it appears to me as a matter of order that the authority to appoint the committee has stemmed from the body through the President. The President has directed the appointment of the Committee and consequently has requested them to make a report. The President may accept this report on behalf of this body without going through a formal motion. Action for adoption may come at a later date.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon, if the Chair may, I believe what the Chairman of the Administration Committee is worried about is that they want some type of authority to allow them to pay and hire the necessary help at this time. It might be in the best order of the Convention to stand at recess for two or three minutes. Mr. Coghill?

COGHILL: Mr. President, if it is the wish of the body I would withdraw my motion and replace it to just have Section B, the first of subsection 1 and 2 of Section B, adopted at this time which would give us our working group, our stenographer group, and then we will go ahead and have the report mimeographed in full for Monday and then go over it again then, if that is agreeable with the objections on the floor.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Collins.

COLLINS: Mr. President, I think the suggestion of Mr. Coghill covers this. Why not adopt those sections that are deemed necessary at the present time and accept the balance of it later. That will meet the objection.

RILEY: Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent for a five minute recess.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If there is no objection the Convention will be at recess for five minutes. Hearing no objection, the Convention is at recess.

AFTER RECESS

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order (3:10 p.m.). Mr. Coghill?

COGHILL: Mr. President, I move and ask unanimous consent that the Convention receive the report, report No. 1

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Coghill, before you continue has your previous motion been withdrawn? Would you ask unanimous consent

of your second?

COGHILL: I so ask consent that my previous motion be withdrawn.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Coghill, with consent of the second, asks unanimous consent that the previous motion be withdrawn. You are now in order Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: Mr. President, I move and ask unanimous consent that the Committee report on Administration for the Convention, Report No. 1 be received by the Convention, and that sections B1 and B2 of the report be adopted insofar as they specify the positions stated therein and the daily rate of pay.

BUCKALEW: Objection.

JOHNSON: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Buckalew, do you object?

BUCKALEW: I do.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Johnson seconds Mr. Coghill's motion. The motion is now open for discussion. Mr. Buckalew?

BUCKALEW: Mr. President, the first point I would like to bring to the body's attention is that I don't believe there is any necessity for an Assistant Chief Clerk, and I think if the need ever arises the body can then authorize the position. I don't think anyone would argue at this time we need an Assistant Chief Clerk and I think this body ought to retain the authority to itself as to whether the Assistant Chief Clerk will be hired. At $24.00 a day I don't think it's proper to leave that authority --

COGHILL: Point of order, Mr. President. In our Committee report it was spelled out that as far as the secretariat was concerned, the positions would be filled as necessary and not immediately.

BUCKALEW: My point is, Mr. President, that this body should retain the authority themselves. This body itself should decide when we are going to hire an Assistant Chief Clerk.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Buckalew, the Chair will hold that Mr. Coghill's point of order is well taken. That is the function of that Committee, the Committee on Administration as far as recommending to the body.

BUCKALEW: Mr. President, I don't think you get my point. My point is that if we accept the report the secretariat has

that position authorized at this time and I move to strike it from the report and ask unanimous consent.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Object.

TAYLOR: Point of order, Mr. President.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Your point of order, Mr. Taylor.

TAYLOR: There is already a motion before us.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The point of order is well taken at this time. At this time the motion is out of order because there is another motion before us on the floor, and the question is, "Shall the report of Mr. Coghill be adopted, or portions of the report as he suggested? Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, may we have it read again, rather slowly, the portions of the report we would be adopting if this motion prevails.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Coghill, would you do that?

COGHILL: Section B pertains to the secretariat, with an estimated 80 days, we are going on the assumption that --

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Mr. Coghill, would you come up to the microphone please? .

COGHILL: We are under the presumption that the Convention is going to run its full time in making these estimates.

(Mr. Coghill reread Sections 1 and 2 under B.)

PRESIDENT EGAN: What is the pleasure of the Convention? The motion is still before us as to whether or not to adopt those portions of the report that Mr. Coghill has brought before us. Mr. Taylor?

TAYLOR: Mr. President, for the purpose of getting this before the Convention I will move that Sections Bl and B2 --

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Taylor, it has already been moved and seconded that those portions be adopted. Mr. Buckalew?

BUCKALEW: Mr. President, I want to address myself on one other subject on this report and do it with extreme reluctance. It seems to me that I don't see why the permanent Secretary should get more than the presiding officer. I was led to believe earlier during the session that the permanent Secretary's salary was coming from the Statehood Committee. Now I see it is coming right out of the money that the Legislature appropriated

is a capable young lawyer, but I see no reason for paying him $43.00 a day, and I object to it strenuously. I see no reason why the permanent Secretary should get more than the presiding officer. I don't think it is reasonable.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hellenthal.

HELLENTHAL: Mr. President, this matter was given careful thought by the Committee. Mr. Stewart was engaged by the Statehood Committee, and his salary was fixed by them. He has worked at that salary as I understand it, for some considerable period of time, far longer than we have been in session, many months. I have no recollection whatsoever of anyone telling this body that Mr. Stewart's wages would be $35.00 at all, and I differ with Mr. Buckalew in that respect. I want to point out that Mr. Stewart is serving as a technical person. He is not a delegate. His job is as complex as that of a delegate's and much more so. I believe that the Statehood Committee made a wise move in fixing his salary in the manner that Mr. Coghill's Committee now seeks approval for. His work is much more difficult now than it has been in the past, and to now reduce his salary would seem to me to be pretty small. His work has increased. l!is salary should be held the way it was. If it was good and just three months ago it is far, he is far more deserving of it at this time and throughout the duration of our session, and I see no reason why my salary should serve as a ceiling for that of every person employed by the Convention. I think that distinction is without logic.

WHITE: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. White, your point of order.

WHITE: Did I understand the ruling of the Chair to be that amendments to this motion in the nature of striking or revising certain items are out of order at this time?

PRESIDENT EGAN: No, Mr. White, that would be in order, but Mr. Buckalew moved, he didn't move to amend, he just moved. that it be stricken. He should have moved to amend the motion for a specific purpose. His motion was not stated properly.

BUCKALEW: Mr. President, I will state the motion. I move to delete that section which refers to the salary of the permanent Secretary. I would like to state one more time that I was informed and lead to believe that his salary was coming out of another fund than which we are now taking it out of.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Buckalew moves that that portion relating to the Secretary's salary be deleted from this consideration.

TAYLOR: Mr. President?

this time Mr. Taylor. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: I second the motion.

P PRESIDENT EGAN:Mr. Sundborg seconds the motion.

SUNDBORG: I wondered if Mr. Buckalew's motion includes the portion dealing with the $12 per diem for the Secretary.

BUCKALEW: It pertains to the whole section.

SUNDBORG: The whole section? Then you are moving to strike it?

BUCKALEW: I am moving to strike it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McNealy.

MCNEALY: Mr. President, I would like to speak on the amendment here. I don't think there was anyone except Ken Johnson that worked any harder on the Ways and Means to try and save money for the Territory, and I feel the same way in this Convention. I feel that money can be saved by endeavoring to shorten the time of the Convention and at least get out of here with a well-written Constitution before Christmas, but knowing Tom Stewart, our Secretary, and knowing the way he does work and knowing the way he will work, I believe this amendment should be defeated, and he will earn every cent of his $43.66 a day.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Taylor.

TAYLOR: I think Mr. President, it would be false economy to quibble over some money for the Secretary when we have one with the capabilities of Mr. Stewart. Now Mr. Buckalew says he has been led to believe. Now has there been one word on the floor of this Convention that would lead Mr. Buckalew to say that the Statehood Committee was going to pay Mr. Stewart's salary? If he wants to listen to some idle gossip by somebody else as to whether or not Mr. Stewart is going to get paid by the Statehood Committee, he should verify these statements before he comes here and says he has been led to believe by somebody, and I will say, as a member of the Statehood Committee, he has not been led to believe by what any member of the Statehood Committee has said regarding that. Nothing has come up here. I think it is a case of wishful thinking on his part to cut the salary of Mr. Stewart.

BUCKALEW: Mr. President?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Buckalew. Is there anyone else who desires

to speak first? Mr. Barr has been attempting to get the floor,

last say on the discussion Mr. Buckalew.

BARR: I see no reason for comparing Mr. Stewart's salary with that of the delegate . Mr. Stewart was handpicked for this job because of his abilities and his experience. There is actually no one in the Territory today, I believe, who has the same experience he has in these statehood matters. He has done a tremendous amount of research work on it. Here we may of course receive a little less money, but we were not handpicked the way he was. We are here because the people decided to vote for us. I would rather compare Mr. Stewart's salary with that of a truck driver. There are truck drivers operating out of Fairbanks who are receiving more than this proposed figure. Their only responsibility is to truck and a great deal is going to depend on Mr. Stewart's action here, the whole success of the Convention in fact and I believe he is entitled to, if not a truck driver's salary, at least very little less.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mrs. Nordale.

NORDALE: Mr. President, I don't know, I have no idea of the total amount of Mr. Stewart's compensation but I question the propriety of paying him a per diem. The reason he was receiving a per diem from the Statehood Committee was that the Statehood Committee sent him from Juneau to perform a service up here and so he was entitled to per diem. We engaged his services when he was here on the grounds. It seems to me there is a question whether it is proper to pay him a per diem in addition to salary, anymore than we would any other of the staff who do not live in Fairbanks.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Marston.

MARSTON: We lost money the other day in talking about this taping of the question, about a thousand dollars in time, and we're getting in the same position now. We've lost more than the additional money we're paying him by this time right here. Let's bring this to the question and get it over with.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Question.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there anyone else who desires to speak before the question?

Mr. Rivers.

V. RIVERS: I feel as Mr. Marston does. I will move for the previous question.

TAYLOR: I second it.

PRESIDENT EGAN Mr. Rivers moves the previous question. The motion has been seconded. The effect of this motion is to stop

original motion. The question is, "Shall the previous question be ordered?" All those in favor of ordering the"previous question will say "aye", all opposed "no". The ayes have it and the previous question is ordered. Will the Chief Clerk please read the motion again, the one we are voting on.

CHIEF CLERK: That the Committee report on Administration, Report No. 1 be received by the Convention and that Section Bl and B2 be adopted so far as they specify the positions therein and the daily rate of pay.

PRESIDENT EGAN: No, it is the amendment by Mr. Buckalew we are voting on.

CHIEF CLERK: Move to delete that section pertaining to the permanent Secretary.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Was there a second to that motion? I didn't hear one.

BUCKALEW: George Sundborg.

PRESIDENT EGAN: All those in favor say "aye", all opposed "no". The "nays" have it and the amendment is lost. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, I would like to move an amendment to strike the item one doorkeeper at $18.00 per day. We don't even have a door here. I don't see why we need a doorkeeper, and it seems to me this is just one of those sort of pension or honorarium things which has crept into usage for legislative sessions and there is no reason to perpetuate it in this Constitutional Convention because that person would not serve any useful function.

BUCKALEW: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Sundborg moves to strike the salary of the doorkeeper. He is in effect amending the motion that is not pending before us. It is an amendment. Mr. McCutcheon? Was that motion seconded?

BUCKALEW: I seconded it.

MCCUTCHEON: Mr. President, I move to lay the matter on the table concerning the receiving and adoption of this report until the report has been placed in the hands of all of the group here, because to work on a relatively technical matter such as this without everyone having the full benefit of the knowledge of the full contents of the report places us all at a disadvantage. I so move that it be laid on the table pending reproduction of this report and placing it in the hands of

COGHILL: I object.

BUCKALEW: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon moves that the original motion be laid on the table. It's been moved and seconded that the original motion be laid on the table. All those in favor of laying the original motion on the table pending receipt of these portions of the report say aye . All opposed say "no". The nays have it. The motion to table is lost. Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: Mr. President, is this open for debate on the amendment?

PRESIDENT EGAN: The amendment that is by Mr. Sundborg relative to the doorkeeper? That is correct, Mr. Coghill, it is open for debate.

COGHILL: Mr. President, in the Committee on Administration we have been working two days on this report and we have tried to round out a complete and desirable secretariat and a personnel services staff, and in doing so we feel that a sergeantat-arms is not enough to keep order on the floor of the Convention when things start rolling. Now most of us have been down to Juneau at some time or other during the legislative session. You know how stormy the lobbyists, visitors and the confusion can get. With having two people at our service to serve us at our desks or to keep people quiet or to have somebody brought in at the call of the Convention or to adhere to the rules and regulations set down for the Convention by the Rules Committee. we must have at least two people. We in the Committee are not desirous of spending $262,000. That is not our intent. The economy of this Convention is going to come on how long it is going to take us and not on our professional or secretarial services. We have weighed this matter carefully. We have submitted it to you earnestly. We would like to have you consider it as such.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Buckalew.

BUCKALEW: Mr. President, this is the last time I am going to get up today. I've had the cure. But I see no necessity for, I too served in the Legislature and supposedly in the noisiest and most raucous house they ever had, and I can assure you that a sergeant-at-arms can handle the door and the business on the floor. I'll use the same words -- I think it is ridiculous, I think if you're looking after the taxpayer's money, we hope we can get through with this Convention in 30 days and when it is $2,000 I think it is a waste of money and

COGHILL: Point of information, Mr. President. It is not $2,000 at all. That estimate is taken on the full 80 days or the full time of the Convention -- 75 days plus mopping-up procedures after the Convention.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there any further discussion on the motion?

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Question.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The question is, "Shall the salary of the doorkeeper be stricken from this report?" All in favor of the motion signify by saying "aye", all opposed "no". The "noes" have it and the motion is lost. Is there further discussion on the main motion?

DAVIS: I move the main motion.

MCCUTCHEON: I second the motion.

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, point of information.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Sundborg.

SUNDBORG: I would like to know if the motion, not the previous question, but the main motion to which we seem to be proceeding to a vote, authorizes any particular person to hire these people, or is it only authorizing a salary scale and that these positions be established.

COGHILL: I can answer that. By not accepting and adopting our full report these positions will be on hand but we have no authority to hire anybody for them. In the report it was brought out by the Committee and it is desirous of the Committee to have the Secretary hire--as to keep pressures from any one particular part of this body, but that would be left out now, not accepted.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Davis moved the obvious question, seconded by Mr. McCutcheon. The question is, shall the previous question be ordered?" All those in favor say "aye", all opposed say "no". The "ayes" have it and the previous question is ordered. We are about to vote on the original motion, and the question is, shall those portions of the report as presented by Mr. Coghill be adopted by the Convention?" All those in favor of adopting the report say "aye", all opposed "no". The "ayes" have it, and those portions of the report are adopted. Mr. Johnson?

JOHNSON: Mr. President, I believe at the beginning of the session today we inadvertently overlooked acting upon the minutes of the previous plenary session. Therefore, I ask

sessions be considered read and approved and that this notation be inserted in its proper place in today's record.

PRESIDENT EGAN: You have heard Mr. Johnson's unanimous consent request. If there is no objection it is so ordered. Mr. Hellenthal?

HELLENTHAL: Mr. President, I am fresh at this sort of thing. I just wonder though if that means that we will go for many days without knowing what kind of minutes are being kept. We all seem to agree that a record of this Convention is of great, great importance and it will be for many years to come so I merely suggest that some day soon we take a look at the minutes to see if we are getting good minutes.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Your suggestion is probably well taken, Mr. Hellenthal. It probably will not be too great a time now. Before we'll have that, we will have to have the staff first. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, I move and ask unanimous consent that the Committee on Committees be discharged.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Sundborg moves and asks unanimous consent that the advisory Committee on Committees be discharged. Is there objection? Hearing no objection it is so ordered. Mrs. Hermann?

HERMANN: Mr. President, I move that the Secretary be directed to procure a gavel for the use of the Constitutional Convention, a nice gavel, and that at the conclusion of the Convention that it be presented to the University Museum. I might say in passing that the one you have been using is mine.

JOHNSON: I ask unanimous consent to the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Unanimous consent has been asked that Mrs. Hermann's request be adopted. Is there objection?

BUCKALEW: Objection.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Objection is heard. Mr. Buckalew.

JOHNSON: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: It has been moved and seconded by Mr. Johnson that the Convention purchase a gavel for the use of the President during this Convention and at the conclusion of the Convention the gavel be given to the Museum of the University of Alaska.

BUCKALEW: Mr. President, I would like to know how much this

as $500 for a gavel. I think we are going to run out of money, that is all. I will move that they don't spend over $2000 for that.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The President would like at this time to appoint a committee to purchase that gavel. I would like to appoint Mr. Buckalew Chairman and Mr. Johnson as the Committee to purchase the gavel that was ordered by the Convention. Did the motion say that the Secretary do it? The President is out of order and will withdraw the Committee. The Secretary may do the purchasing.

CHIEF CLERK: We haven't adopted the motion yet.

SUNDBORG: We have not adopted the motion yet.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Buckalew objected to that? The question is "Shall the request of Mrs. Hermann be adopted?" Mr. McNealy?

MCNEALY: Mr. President, I would like, with Delegate Hermann's consent, to move an amendment that rather than the Secretary purchasing this that the Chair appoint a committee to purchase the gavel.

HERMANN: I will accept the amendment.

R. RIVERS: Mr. President, I ask for unanimous consent for the adoption of that amendment.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers asks unanimous consent that the motion as amended be adopted. Is there objection? Hearing no objection, then Mr. Johnson and Mr. Buckalew may purrchase the gavel. Mr. Coghill?

COGHILL: Mr. President, I move and ask unanimous consent that the Convention stand at ease for one minute.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Coghill asks unanimous consent that the Convention stand at ease for one minute. Hearing no objection, the Convention will be at ease.

AFTER RECESS

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Convention will come to order. Mr. Coghill?

COGHILL: Mr. President, I move and ask unanimous consent that the Secretary be authorized to fill the staff positions, authorized to the extent that they may be necessarily needed, subject to the approval of the Committee on Administration.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Unanimous consent is asked by Mr. Coghill, that the Secretary be authorized to fill the staff positions as muuch

Convention. Is that your intention, Mr. Coghill? The Chief Clerk will read the motion exactly as Mr. Coghill read it.

CHIEF CLERK: "That the Secretary be authorized to fill the staff positions, authorized to the extent that he may determine necessary,"subject to the approval of the Committee on Administration.

PRESIDENT EGAN: You have heard the unanimous consent request. Is there objection? Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, I object only temporarily and for the purpose of determining whether that might be in conflict with a rule which the Rules Committee has drawn up on that subject. I wonder if we could ask Mr. Riley to straighten that out.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley. Could you answer that question?

RILEY: I think not, Mr. President. I think it amplifies it a little but does not conflict at all. We expect to propose to the body Monday morning. I might add that the Rules Committee has virtually concluded its deliberations but we have nothing yet to put before the full Convention.

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, the one thing that occurs to me is that in the proposed rule which will be presented to you, there is a provision that the hiring of the staff, while it may be done by the Secretary, will always be under the direction of the President, which would not have been covered by Mr. Coghill's motion.

RILEY: Mr. President, to touch on that very briefly - the proposed rule will state that under the direction of the President the Secretary shall assign and supervise the work of all administrative, clerical, and custodial employees. Now there is no coverage on employment.

COGHILL: In the rules that we adopted for committee, that the definition for your Committee on Administration includes finances, personnel -- it is page two of the mimeographed form, Section 2.

(Mr. Coghill read from this.)

SUNBORG: Mr. President, that is correct that is the province where you are to bring forth recommendations to the Convention but that does not necessarily mean that the Committee will do the hiring unless the Convention so directs. What you would not direct is that the Secretary would do the hiring subject to the approval of your Committee. For the record I withdraw my objection.

motion by Mr. Coghill has been adopted, and the Secretary is instructed to hire the particular personnel that are needed. Is there any further business to come before the Convention at this time? Mr. Hilscher?

HILSCHER: Mr. President, your Committee on Tape Recording, would you like to have that report?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Yes, that is the special Committee on Tape Recording.

HILSCHER: Your Committee, consisted of Mr. Barry White, Mr. Nerland, Mr. Harris, George Cooper, and Hilscher. We met with KFAR. We also talked with KFRB. We also talked with Colonel Sawtelle of the Air Force at Ladd Field to see what we could get from them or what assistance we could get. KFRB in a letter advises in essence that this station feels it should not submit a bid for recording the proceedings of the Constitutional Convention due to the fact that a set-up is here already, too short notice, purchase of equipment from the states, time of arrival, set-up, etc., would practically preclude them from being of any direct value to us. The Air Force advised us that such equipment as they have at the present time is somewhat old, is inadequate, they do not have enough and probably could not put it together in a theater, and furthermore, if a civilian concern or a civilian operator who could do this, very obviously, the Air Force would be stopped from offering this service to us, because it would then be in competition with civilian service. KFAR has proposed two bases which we requested specifically at your instruction: one, if we were to buy the equipment and then attempt to sell it later on, what such equipment would cost and the cost of handling the deal. The other would be to carry on as they are at the present time with new equipment which they would probably string across here and carry through. KFAR has offered us what your Committee believes to be a satisfactory proposition as follows: KFAR would assume the cost of the equipment and would retain ownership of the equipment for a guarantee of 150 recording hours, at $31.20 per hour, in addition to $6.00 rental charge per hour, or $37.20 per hour. Total cost to the Convention for the minimum period, 150 hours of plenary session would be $5,580. That is the base cost. In Mr. Coghill's report there has been an allowable sum of $8,000 for tape recording. Duplicates would cost at the rate of $18.00 per hour. Now there is no possible way for your Committee to come up and tell you that you are going to have to spend $6,000 or $4,000 or $8,000 to cover this Convention. It is just as impossible to tell you that as it is if you are going to the hospital for a serious operation how long you are going to be there and how much it will cost. We submit this as a base figure, $5,580, we have as good a proposition as we can possibly get. Mr. President, a bearing on this question of whether we tape it or

Peratrovich to give us his reaction to the first day's broadcasting and on making this information available to the public, as he heard it in Ketchikan.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If there is no objection, Mr. Peratrovich, would you be kind enough to tell us your reaction.

PERATROVICH: The reception, as I told some of you delegates, was very well received. Fortunately, the reception was good, and in my area of the woods practically everyone in the little communities was commenting on the ceremonies here. It was well received. It was clear. The speeches were all taken in pretty well, and after arriving at Ketchikan I talked to at least five or six individuals there that have homes in Ketchikan, and their comment was in the same manner. And I attended the Chamber of Commerce gathering there, and I noticed the interest is being shown a little more than at the start which leads me to believe perhaps this broadcasting did some good --at least the public has taken an interest. I am sure that if you keep them informed in this matter by the time you present a constitution you will have wonderful cooperation. I know it was well received. I heard part of it, and I enjoyed it myself. I hope you folks will see fit to continue it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Smith?

SMITH: Mr. President, at the risk of exposing my lack of knowledge, I would just like to ask anyone who is capable of answering the question, just how long it would take to reproduce duplicates -- say that we run the 150 hours. I would judge they could be run at the rate in excess of what they will be recorded, and I just wonder if there is any information on that.

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, point of order. I don't think we have anything before us.

PRESIDENT EGAN: That is right. Mr. Smith stated he was rising to a point of information. The Chair feels that under the circumstances that might be a good question for Mr. Hilscher to answer.

HILSCHER: Mr. Harris is an electronic engineer and he is on our Committee and could possibly answer the question.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Harris.

HARRIS: Mr. President, we were discussing this same thing yesterday. You can only make duplicates at the same rate of speed as the originals are made. In other words, when the Convention winds up we have 150 hours of tape then it will take

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hilscher with the consent of his second, desires to have the motion changed to read that the Convention will "guarantee a 150 hours of recording." Mr. Buckalew?

BUCKALEW: If it is relevant I would like to ask a question of Mr. Coghill through the Chair.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If it is relevant to this question you may if Mr. Coghill desires to answer it.

SWEENEY: Would you ask Mr. Buckalew to speak a little louder please.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Would you speak a little louder please, Mr. Buckalew? Mr. Coghill if there is no objection you may answer the question through the Chair.

BUCKALEW: Mr. Coghill, did you make arrangements or set money aside for printing the journal for the proceedings of this body?

COGHILL: We did not specifically set aside money for printing the journal. We thought the journal could be mimeographed and therefore it would come under the supplies -- the postage, the $3500. That would be under Section 6, supplies and postage of which was not adopted. Does that answer your question?

BUCKALEW: Then may I have the floor, Mr. President? PRESIDENT EGAN: Yes, you may have the floor Mr. Buckalew.

BUCKALEW: It seems to me that the most positive record of the proceedings of this body would be a printed journal. It seems to me we should make provisions for printing a journal before we start spending $5,000 for a tape recording which I understand is going to be censored by somebody I don't know.

V. RIVERS: I noticed on the Committee report which we received Mr. President, there is a miscellaneous item set up for some $23,500. I feel confident that the printing of the journal could be included under that.

KILCHER: Mr. President?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Kilcher.

KILCHER: In reply to Mr. Buckalew, I might state that there was no implication in Mr. Hilscher's motion that it would be edited later on. That remark was not connected with the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there any further discussion. Mr. Poulsen.

it by roll call?

PRESIDENT EGAN: If you request a roll call Mr. Poulsen, the Chair will ask for a roll call vote. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: Does the motion before us include the matter of duplicates or is it only the original recording?

PRESIDENT EGAN: The motion before us would only include the original recording. Is there further discussion on the motion?

V. RIVERS: Question.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The question is, "Shall the plenary sessions of the Convention be transcribed with a guarantee of 150 hours being given to the people transcribing the sessions of the Convention?" The Chief Clerk can call the roll.

V. RIVERS: Point of order Mr. Chairman. I think the word "transcribed" is improperly used. I think "soundscribing" is correct.

PRESIDENT EGAN: "Soundscribing" is correct, Mr. Rivers. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: I wonder if this has been developed. After this complete soundscribing record is made, all we have is the tape. Is that what I understand? If it is to be transcribed into written words that would be an additional duty of somebody and an additional expense we have not yet authorized.

PRESIDENT EGAN: That is correct. Mr. Taylor?

TAYLOR: Mr. President, I believe that the making duplicates of those records can certainly be left to the future. I think it would be within the province of the Legislature if they saw fit to have as many duplicates of that tape made as they needed. We know that there should be at least three or four made. They will go on into the permanent archives of the Territory, it should go to the Congress, the Library of Congress, and then have the original put away in some safe place where it would not be used again unless it be necessary.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Taylor, this particular motion only takes care of the original soundscribing.

TAYLOR: The only reason I spoke on that matter, Mr. President, was the fact that they did inject into it about these duplicates they were going to have but I think that should be left for the Legislature.

LONDBORG: As I understand it, one of the original reasons presented for soundscribing is to have a record through which the stenotypist can check for accuracy. As we have it KFAR will be through at the end of the recording. We will have no equipment for her to play it back on and will be of no value to her unless some provision is made for an engineer, tape recording equipment, etc., to have at her disposal.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Harris.

HARRIS: Mr. President, I might mention this, in speaking to KFAR yesterday the recording machines will be set up here and they will tape the plenary sessions and naturally, if they are taped here, if the Secretary or anyone else would like to request that portion of the tape, the engineer will be here, the recording machine will be here and they could do so at that time. Those records could be checked. I might also point out the fact that personally I feel we are quibbling over something that actually is invaluable. I wonder how many of us here, how much we would pay, if it was possible to go back and listen to the original Constitution of the United States played back to us now.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Buckalew.

BUCKALEW: Mr. President, I am going to be through after this, but it seems to me this body is premature. From the report of Mr. Coghill I can't see there has been any definite money set aside for a printed journal. A printed journal is the most important portion of any proceedings. That is like a book that you could use in court, the legislature and there has been no adequate provision made for a printed journal. It seems to me that would be the most important thing to take care of first. This business of buying this tape and putting it in a waterproof can and putting a brass knob on it or something and burying it in Juneau is not going to be of any earthly use to anybody. The printed journal is what this body should have. There has been no adequate provision made for it and it is premature at this time I think to order tapes and cans to put it in.

MCCUTCHEON: Mr. President?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McCutcheon.

MCCUTCHEON: The thought has just occurred to me that in the event this particular constitution is turned down by the people there would.not be much need for a printed journal. In the event that our constitution is accepted by the people, certainly from the records we will have from the daily journal as it goes along, the Territorial Legislature will be able to appropriate

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Fischer.

V. FISCHER: Mr. President, there are two points I would like to bring up. First of all, one of the arguments that has been used for taping is that it could be used for informing the people of Alaska of what is going on on the Convention floor through use of duplicate tapes. That point is not substantiated at all in the authorization of the expenditure of $5,580. In other words, unless we make an additional appropriation, the people of Alaska will have no use of this tape. Another argument that has been raised has been that it may help the stenotypist in keeping a good record. Now, it might very well be much cheaper and a more efficient way to get another stenotypist and have two good-looking young ladies in front of us transcribing all of this, because in many ways a written record is so much more valuable, even a word-for-word record, than would be a sound recording. A sound recording would be very difficult to use for reference purposes, for the simple reason that there would be no easy way of finding particular portions that you may be interested in if you could. In a written record where you can index and cross index, certain pages skip over it as rapidly as you desire.

HELLENTHAL: Question.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Coghill.

COGHILL: Mr. Chairman, I move that the motion on the floor be tabled and made the first order of business Monday morning and ask unanimous consent.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Objection.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there a second to your motion?

BUCKALEW: I second it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Coghill moves and Mr. Buckalew seconded a motion that the question before us be tabled until Monday morning.

HERMANN: Mr. President?

PRESIDENT EGAN: The motion is undebatable, Mrs. Hermaann.

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Question.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The question is, "Shall the question be tabled?" All those in favor of tabling this qustion of soundscribing the plenary session say aye , all opposed say "no". The "noes" have it and the motion has failed. Mr. McNealy?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McNealy moves the previous question.

JOHNSON: I second it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Johnson seconds the motion. All those in favor of ordering the previous question say "aye", all opposed "no". The ayes have it and the previous question is ordered, and the question is, "Shall the Convention order the soundscribing of the plenary sessions with a guarantee of 150 hours?" The Chief Clerk will call the roll.

(The Chief Clerk called the roll with the following result:

Ayes: 46 - Armstrong, Awes, Barr, Boswell, Collins,

Cooper, Cross, Davis, Doogan, Emberg, H. Fischer, Harris,

Hellenthal, Hermann, Hilscher, Hinckel, Hurley, Johnson,

Kilcher, King, Laws, Lee, McCutcheon, McLaughlin, McNealy,

McNees, Marston, Metcalf, Nerland, Nolan, Nordale,

Peratrovich, Riley, R. Rivers, V. Rivers, Robertson,

Rosswog, Smith, Stewart, Sweeney, Taylor, Vanderleest, Walsh,

White, Wien, Mr. President.

Nays: 9 - Buckalew, Coghill, V. Fischer, Gray, Knight,

Londborg, Poulsen, Reader, Sundborg.)

PRESIDENT EGAN: So the motion has carried and the Convention has gone on record as ordering the soundscribing of the plenary sessions with a guarantee of 150 hours. Mr. White?

WHITE: Mr. President, I move and ask unanimous consent that the Secretary be empowered to proceed according to the recommendations made by the Committee and make the necessary arrangements for the soundscribing.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. White asks unanimous consent that the Secretary be empowered to proceed with the necessary arrangements. Is there objection? Hearing none, the Secretary is so ordered. Mr. Barr?

BARR: I move that the Secretary also be empowered to authorize transcriptions of each day's soundscribing to be made as soon as practical after the end of that day's transcribing so that it may become available to radio stations.

KILCHER: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Barr moves and Mr. Kilcher seconds the motion asking that the --

Barr's motion, I just wonder whether or not Mr. Barr intends that the entire day's proceedings such as we have been running along now, I just wonder how successful we would be in presenting our best foot forward if a lot of this trivia that's been going on now is made directly available to the radio stations. It is our thought at the present time that the more important speeches and discussions would be made available to the radio stations in a program form when the time arrives.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McLaughlin.

MCLAUGHLIN: Mr. President, on that point either you are going to authorize full transcription or you are not going to authorize anything. Who is going to be the censor on what is important and what is not. The only censor, if you desire it, should be the public. If we look bad then we deserve it and if we look good we should be flattered and amazed. Frankly, I don't think you can separate the good from the bad. We have no censors. If we are going to provide it to the public, we should provide the public with the whole proceedings. Possibly it might help to cut down some of the trivia that has been suggested.

BARR: I would like to answer Mr. Hilscher and also check to see if I stated my motion properly. I meant to say that each day a transcription could be made of what had been soundscribed. In other words, the transcription has to be the same as what has been soundscribed, so the question here is to decide what we should put on here in the first place. It has no bearing on my motion.

KILCHER: As far as I understand this technically, is that original soundscribing should be available to the Chief Clerk for correction of minutes and such matter and for that purpose the copy of transcription should be used. The original should be used as little as possible. In order to transcribe and even in order to censor later on, which I hope will not happen, we would have to have a complete transcription and that transcription itself should be a copy. Correct me if I'm wrong.

HINCKEL: I would like some information also. Would it be possible to make two soundscribings simultaneously cheaper than to make a copy. Anybody know that?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Harris.

HARRIS: Mr. President, if I may answer Mr. Hinckel's question. In order that these tapes be taken so that not a word of the Convention is missed, (whether that is good or bad we will not debate) but it is necessary to have two recording machines. KFAR is having to purchase those machines and in return is leasing them to the Convention. In order to take two tapes

and I don't think that would be economically feasible for KFAR or the Convention.

PRESIDENT EGAN: That should answer the question. Mr. Barr, the original intent of your motion then was to have the Secretary each night or the Chief Clerk transcribe everything off of the soundscribed tape?

BARR: No that is not it. I said that as soon as practical after these proceedings had been soundscribed, a transcription should be made, a duplicate, so that we would not have to use the original tape. The duplicate which was transcribed, could be used for both checking on our proceedings here ourselves, or for the radio station, or for any purpose whatsoever. We would not have to touch the original after the transcription was once made. It would be safe.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Who would make that duplicate, Mr. Barr?

BARR: According to the Committee here there would be a man hired to do that. They figure on buying the tape and hiring a man at so much per hour.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hellenthal.

HELLENTHAL: Mr. Chairman, might I interject a thought. I am convinced in my own mind that with a modern, true and accurate tape representing every word that is uttered at the Convention that the necessity for a journal will be totally eliminated. Journals came from the past when tape recording machines were not invented, and so I feel that we should not think that superimposed on the cost involved here would be the additional cost of an archaic and totally useless printed journal.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers.

R. RIVERS: Mr. President, I think we are talking about two different things, and I was interested in Mr. Buckalew's remarks about a printed record. A daily working journal would show official action taken and roll calls performed as we do in the Senate and House of Representatives. The Chief Clerk is taking that kind of minutes of these meetings now for a purpose of a daily working journal. Mr. Coghill had in mind that that kind of a daily working journal could be mimeographed and we would each get a copy every day. The Clerk would keep a record of those mimeographed journals. We could refer back during the course of the session as to what happened on the eighth day or the twentieth day. Now then we would have a tape of a verbatim record of the proceedings. We would also have the record of the stenotypist here as a verbatim record. Well, we are certainly not going to type up a verbatim record of all these conversations for journal purposes. We are going to rely upon

think that that daily working journal which can be rather condensed, just like the minutes of any meeting would be archaic or of no use. I think we need that kind of a record for the continuity of our proceedings.

HELLENTHAL: My objections were to the printed archaic record. The printing I think is totally uncalled for.

R. RIVERS: Well, we don't have to decide that now. So I say we should have an understanding that as soon as clerical assistance is made available, the Clerk will provide us with a daily working journal in mimeographed form along the lines I have suggested. Somewhere along the line we are going to have to make a decision as to whether to transcribe the word-by-word proceedings of the plenary sessions. The young lady who operates the stenotype I am sure could read her notes back a month from now or six months from now. At that time, either this body or the Legislature might say "get busy on those stenotype notes and that tape transcription and let us go ahead now and print a printed record of the entire proceedings." So with that distinction Mr. Chairman, I will sit down. I think we have before us the need for having a daily working journal and we can postpone the decision as of what to do with the tape and stenotype records.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Rivers, the lady who runs the stenotype here has agreed to transcribe her records as I understand it. The Chair understands it anyway.

R. RIVERS: Fine.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Sundborg.

SUNDBORG: Mr. Chairman, I think we have been using some terms here rather loosely and that has added to the confusion of the body. I wonder if Mr. Barr might grant permission, and if the body would, to change his motion from "transcriptions" to "duplicate tape". I believe that was his intention that a "duplicate" tape be prepared nightly rather than a "transcription".

PRESIDENT EGAN: If there is no objection the original motion will show that change. Instead of the word "transcriptions" being used the words duplicate tape".

MCNEALY: Point of inquiry, Mr. President?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McNealy, your point of inquiry?

MCNEALY: Then does that motion embody the $18.00 an hour to pay for the duplicate tape?

further discussion of the question?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Lee.

LEE: Mr. Chairman, my impression at the beginning of this discussion concerning the soundscribing was that we were to make an effort to see that we have a continual soundscribed record, one record at least. I think we have decided upon that, and it seems to me that that settles the question temporarily.

SWEENEY: I was under the impression also at the beginning of the session that if we took a tape recording of the plenary session the duplicate would not be made until the session was over, that that was the arrangement the transcribers were to be working under. Will this make a difference in the price if we insist on a duplicate tape being made after the day's business?

PRESIDENT EGAN: You mean right at this time, you mean each day Mrs. Sweeney?

SWEENEY: Are they going to have to set up and make a duplicate right away? Will it make a difference in the cost? Do they prefer to do it at the end of the session? That was the point I am bringing up.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Hilscher, could you answer that?

HILSCHER: In our discussion with KFAR, if my memory serves me correctly, we could have the duplicates made at any time. In other words, we could finish up our session at 5 o'clock that evening and probably by 7:30 or 8:00 o'clock that evening, providing they had a couple of hours, we could have our duplicate tape. Wee could have it that same day, by 9 o'clock the next morning, our duplicate tape.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Is there further discussion?

UNIDENTIFIED DELEGATE: Question.

PRESIDENT EGAN: If not, the question is, "Shall the Convention have the duplicate tapes be made each day?" All in favor of the motion say "aye" , all opposed "no". The Chief Clerk will call the roll.

(The Chief Clerk called the roll with the following result:

Ayes: 38 - Armstrong, Awes, Barr, Boswell, Collins,

Cross, Davis, Doogan, Emberg, H. Fischer, V. Fischer, Harris,

Hellenthal, Hermann, Hilschor, Hinckel, Hurley, Johnson,

Kilcher,

King, McCutcheon, McLaughlin, McNealy, McNees, Marston, Metcalf, Nolan, Nordale, Peratrovich, R. Rivers, V. Rivers, Robertson, Stewart, Sweeney, Taylor, VanderLeest, Walsh, White.

Nays: 17 - Buckalew, Coghill, Cooper, Gray, Knight,

Laws, Lee, Londborg, Nerland, Poulsen, Reader, Riley, Rosswog, Smith, Sundborg, Wien, Mr. President.)

PRESIDENT EGAN: So the motion has carried and the Convention will have a duplicate tape transcribed each evening. Mr. Coghill?

COGHILL: Mr. President, request to the Chairman on Convention Administration that you instruct your Committee to give us a complete cost of this operation as soon as possible.

PRESIDENT EGAN: The special Committee has already come forward with that report, Mr. Coghill. You can get it from Mr. Hilscher, probably as soon as we recess. Is there anything further to come before the Convention? Mr. Riley?

RILEY: There will be a meeting of the Committee on Rules following the recess.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Riley announces a meeting of the Committee on Rules immediately after recess. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, I move and ask unanimous consent that the Convention adopt the portion of the report of the Committee on Administration which dealt with the salary and per diem of delegates with the exception that where it is provided that delegates would be for 79 days, that it be changed to 75 days.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Sundborg moves that the Convention adopt the portion of the Committee on Administration report Mr. Hellenthal?

HELLENTHAL? Point of order. I think the motion is out of order in that that matter has already been determined by the Territorial Legislature.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Nolan.

NOLAN: Mr. President, Section 19 of the Act I think covers that.

COGHILL: Mr. President, the reason why that was in the report was just to allocate out the funds. It is the same as trying to pass an approval on the $38,000 which has already been spent

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, may I address a question to the Chairman of the Committee?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Did someone second that motion Mr. Sundborg?

BUCKALEW: I'll second it.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Buckalew seconds it. Your question is in order Mr. Sundborg.

SUNDBORG: Mr. President may I address a question to the Chairman of that Committee through the Chair?

PRESIDENT EGAN: You may, Mr. Sundborg.

SUNDBORG: Do we understand then that the figure "79" which appeared in the description of the salary was a mistake and that actually the members will be paid salary for only 75 days?

COGHILL: That was a mistake, Mr. President. It was meant that the "79" was to be on per diem for travel.

PRESIDENT EGAN: We have Mr. Sundborg's motion before us. Is there further discussion? Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: Parliamentary inquiry. Do I understand this motion is unnecessary, that it has already been taken care of by the 1955 Territorial Legislature?

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. McLaughlin.

MCLAUGHLIN: Mr. Chairman, for the information of the Chair, Mr. Stewart, of the Statehood Committee, prior to the opening of this Convention, asked me as a courtesy to write an opinion of the Attorney General as to how often the delegates would be paid. I did write that opinion and the Attorney General accepted it. I think under the circumstances I must confess sorrowfully that my opinion was rather vague but it satisfied the Attorney General. I think as a point order, Mr. Hellenthal's objection is well taken. That is, the determination as a matter of law as to how often and when we are going to be paid and how long has already been determined in fact and in theory by the Act of the Legislature and we cannot in substance ratify or change the intent of the Legislature when it prescribes the rules. If I may suggest Mr. Sundborg, I would recommend that you withdraw your motion.

SUNDBORG: With the consent of my second and the consent of the Convention I would like to withdraw my motion.

second and asks unanimous consent to withdraw his motion. If there is no objection, it is so ordered. The motion is withdrawn. Mr. McNealy?

MCNEALY: Mr. President, once I was absent and this is a point of inquiry. Has the Convention formally adopted the Constitution of the United States? Are we organized to a point now so it can be adopted as the law requires?

PRESIDENT EGAN: The Chair would feel that the time has arrived when the adoption of the Constitution of the United States would be in order, Mr. McNealy.

MCNEALY: Mr. President, I would move that the Convention declare on behalf of the people of the proposed State of Alaska that the Constitution of the United States is hereby adopted.

BUCKALEW: I second the motion.

PRESIDENT EGAN: It has been moved and seconded that the Constitution, on behalf of the people of the proposed State of Alaska, that the Constitution of the United States be adopted.

JOHNSON: I ask unanimous consent.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Unanimous consent is asked and it is so ordered. The Secretary has a communication. Without objection you may proceed to read it.

SECRETARY: Mr. President, the Assistant Postmaster in Fairbanks asks that this announcement be read.

(Mr. Stewart read the communication from the Post Office Department stating that all mail addressed to delegates had been forwarded to College.)

PRESIDENT EGAN: It further states that Delegate Rosswog has mail at the post office? What is the pleasure of the delegates as to bus service this evening. What time should the bus come and pick us up?

SUNDBORG: Mr. President, I move and ask unanimous consent that the bus be summoned now to be here one-half hour hence.

PRESIDENT EGAN: Mr. Sundborg moves and asks unanimous consent that the bus be summoned now to arrive here approximately five minutes after five. Is there objection? Hearing none it is so ordered. If someone would notify the bus company that we desire the bus here in half an hour, it would be appreciated. Mr. Johnson?

JOHNSON: Mr. President, I move that the Convention stand

PRESIDENT EGAN: Just prior to the adjournment the Chair would like to announce again, he would like a brief meeting with the chairmen of the various committees immediately after adjournment. Mr. Sundborg?

SUNDBORG: I opposed that. The other day we adopted as policy that we should meet at 9:30 daily instead of 10 o'clock. We set up a bus arrangement based on that. I think we ought to stick to the 9:30 hour.

JOHNSON: I will accept the amendment to the motion to adjourn.

PRESIDENT EGAN: So the motion before us is that the Convention stand adjourned until 9:30 a.m. on Monday morning. Is there objection? Hearing no objection it is so ordered and the Convention is adjourned until Monday morning at 9:30 a.m.

(The Convention adjourned at 4:30 p.m.)